Again, rot, you’re just utterly wedded to top-down power and refuse to see anything else.

And even for that, I don’t need a party with MY views, I just need a party of the broad left.

No I am going to pay the fee, or abolish FPTP.

However you do have the option to stand, and based on what you have said that is the only option open to you if you want change.

Alternatively create a new party and start working with friends to stump up the cash.

You’re going to pay the fee, then? Also, abolish FPTP first, right?
You’re stuck, utterly, on top-down methodologies.

And no, you are arguing for no to gradual change. I disagree, since we’ll have radical change sooner or later – if we don’t do it before the economy collapses, it’ll be far more painful for Britain and the British.

I freely admit I have the right of residence in another country and would likely flee if things got THAT bad. I’m not a masochist.

Well then no doubt we will see you standing to be an MP in May then.

While you may be right on your last point, public perception does not believe that, and so until it changes we are still stuck with having to do gradual change.

Keep frantically trying to deny UKIP’s right wing politics, as you try and prevent debate.

No, people on the left don’t want to end trade and cause mass poverty, they’re plain not voting rather than voting UKIP, by all the evidence,

As you make excuse after excuse for the far right who are your fellow travellers, and who you are with excuses like that post condoning every action of. They’re doing it in your name, and you’re not rejecting them.

I want a party which does not cross some *basic* lines. No austerity, no anti-science worldview, willing to *consider* free-market policies as opposed to neoliberalism. There are exactly *two* western countries were there is not a mainstream party like this – America and Britain.

No, I will not vote for the Greens and their agenda.

And we certainly is a crisis and strife (see – UKIP, disenfranchisement of the left, etc.) , and very arguably in worse shape than we were in 1945. When (I don’t think it’s “if” now) the downwards wage/productivity crisis causes a huge crash….

It is not a mis-characterisation at all, simply providing of an example of how we can easily apply it.

And to answer your question it is the Greens, no political party is going to have everything you want. if you really want a party that represents everything you want then stump up £500 and stand as a candidate.

Alternatively we do what I suggested and slow down neo liberism first, then reverse it, those are the three choices you have.

And it is true it did not take 30 years to change consensus but the fall out has taken 30 years to hit the fan.

The trouble with the two things you have mentioned is that they were on the back of huge strife, which we have not reached yet, so the only way to change things is going to be a slow process as I have said over several elections.

That’s a complete mis-characterisation of bottom-up politics. I would suggest finding an old comrade and getting the full lecture on it, it’s one of the things they’re useful for, political theory…

And where’s the party which dosn’t support neoliberalism or austerity which I can vote for, again? (And don’t say the Greens, really, you know my specific issues with them).

Your soloution of voting for a party which is neoliberal and pushing austerity means…er…neoliberalism and austerity. There is no “other way” on this issue, Labour have very clearly said where they stand.

And Thatcher didn’t need 30 years to change the consensus. Neither did the 1945 government. But as the 1945 government’s consensus stood until Thatcher, we are stuck with her consensus today.

you write:

> Clearly it stands somewhere in the badlands to the right of the Tories,

But that reveals your old-fashioned thinking:

That anyone with immigration questions must, by definition, be right wing.

But the truth on the ground is that many classical blue-collar workers, that old-school politics says should be ‘on the left’: ALSO have big questions about immigration; because it is they who have lost employment in recent years due to new levels of immigration.
So the old left/right scale is no longer representing reality.

I don’t think you are helping left thinkers to wrestle with the current landscape as it is, when you simplistically park UKIP on the old-fashioned left-right scale.

Top down politics is waiting for a party to appear that represents your view and vote for them.

Bottom up politics is voting for a party that may not have everything you agree with but then causes the political parties to move in the direction to attract your vote.

On your second point, spoiling your paper will achieve nothing, the way to achieve change will be over several elections, firstly we have to stop or low down neoliberism and austerity so that may mean voting labour at this election, while supporting parties such as the greens where possible.

The next election, move the vote more the other way and vote for parties like the greens as they grow then you slowly pull the political consensus back.

Remember it took us nearly 30 years to get where we are, it will probably take another 30 to undo the damage their is no silver bullet and that the sooner we acknowledge the sooner we can start changing things for the better :).