It can’t go down with mass deaths. That’s the entire point. Even with the best of will, it will take decades to get to a situation where it can fall now.

Even measures like rent control, which we need, will take years to have an effect. Milliband has repeatedly used the language of the Tories on this, it’s his weakest area.

“Without some far more fundamental changes, welfare spending is going nowhere except up.”

My point precisely. Ever-increasing welfare spending is a sticking-plaster solution to deep-rooted problems. We should be looking to address those problems (unemployment and underemployment, low pay, a lack of affordable housing) and thereby get welfare spending under control. For instance, we should aim to cut the £20bn housing benefit bill not by cutting individual claimants’ benefits, but by controlling private sector rents and building social housing. We should aim to reduce the (similar) Tax Credits bill by increasing the number of people earning a Living Wage. We should aim to reduce the JSA bill by getting unemployed people into work. I’m not sure what you find so controversial in any of this. I agree that we need to see a lot more from Labour in terms of policy, but it does increasingly seem that Miliband ‘gets it’; he rightly diagnoses the increasing concentration of wealth at the top of society (over the past thirty years or so) as the source of much of our present trouble.

I’m not really interested in theoretical full employment, at this stage. Without some far more fundamental changes, welfare spending is going nowhere except up. And I’ve seen no proposals out of Labour which amount to anything like that.

Why so prickly Newsbot? We’re on the same side, aren’t we? I’m not suggesting that we’re actually in a position to reduce welfare spending overnight. I’m suggesting that it would be desirable for (e.g) spending on out-of-work benefits to fall as a result of unemployment falling, for spending on in-work benefits to fall as a result of more people earning a living wage, etc. I am rejecting a vision of society in which unemployment is high, wages are low, housing is unaffordable for many people – but it’s OK, because instead of tackling those issues we can just pay out more benefits.

So magic then? It’s going to take 30+ years to get back to full employment, given the damage the Tories have.

Erm… yeah, I guess a purge is one option… I was thinking more along the lines of full employment and decent wages.

So you want, what, to purge the unemployed? Really not clear on your goal here.