He didn’t actually say that in the terms you infer but hey, why let a little thing called proper context get in the way of good catchphrase? Mr. Hammond simply confirmed what we knew already – that all railways are generally patronised by upper income quintiles of any given population. Nothing new there then?

It creates good copy to make utterly bogus claims, ten/fifteen years in advance of the first train services, implying that the new high speed line will be the exclusive preserve of rich business account fuelled executives, whizzing around Europe whilst hard working ordinary taxpayers fund their excesses with our hard earned taxes – of course this notion is a misleading mirage, constructed to bamboozle public opinion and apply pressure on decision makers.

My postcode is SK9 7** and when phase 2 of HS2 is built the line will run perhaps 3km from my house yet I strongly support HS2 (and HS3,4&5 quickly thereafter) because it will deliver massive benefits for UK plc – perhaps you could share your postcode, @M.Wahlberg, which might go some way to explaining your implacable opposition to this long overdue project bringing the UK’s rail infrastructure into the 21st century?

Not only will taxpayers be subsidising the capital costs of this “rich man’s toy” (£1,000+ from each family wherever they live and whatever the condition of their own transport services), but there will be continuing annual subsidies for the rich men to use this line too. This is intended to be coupled with a REDUCTION in the subsidies in all other services in part to make room for the massive subsidy that HS2 will need. Now, put together the most profitable fares being streamed onto HS2, and the reduction of subsidies on the competing classic lines, and you will see why cities ‘off the line’ – Coventry, Black Country, Northampton, Leicester etc increasingly realise that HS2 will mean WORSE services for them coupled with the high probability that jobs from their areas will be sucked towards the enterprise zones and greenfield sites intended to be based around the few HS2 stations. Wake up Labour – where is the progressive agenda in this? There IS an alternative! And heaven help us if he gets to spend the £32 Billion+ on extending this “rich man’s toy” up to Manchester airport, East Midland’s airport and Leeds airport. We all want investment for jobs and greater equity between the regions and London – but HS2 will not deliver this. Yes to investing in, speeding up and modernising rail for all regions, but no to the “rich man’s toy” HS2 project.

I admit that it’s conjecture on my part to suggest that HS2 will be a rich man’s railway. However, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable assumption to make. For instance, a ticket from Birmingham to Euston is currently very expensive (and rail prices rise above inflation as a matter of course). Do you really believe that a more modern line, with quicker trains (albeit only marginally in this instance: I’ve heard that that route will only see a 20 minute time saving) will be cheaper, or even the same price?

As for my earlier comment about my lack of knowledge vis-a-vis opinion polls, I have gone some way to rectifying this:

http://www.hs2actionalliance.org/index.php/news/pollssurveys

The strong trend appears to be against HS2. From what I’ve heard anecdotally this comes as no surprise. I genuinely believe the government has its priorities all wrong on this issue, and it seems I’m far from alone in holding that view.

You betray your wilful ignorance in this matter by repeating the completely unsubstantiated claim that any new line will be the exclusive preserve of a “tiny number of rich businessmen who will be able to afford to travelling to the continent via the HS2.” Please explain (in rational language) how you arrive at this bizarrre conclusion ten/fifteen years in advance of the event?

What rot. It’s perfectly possible to upgrade lines. Only a short interchange line out of London would be necessary.

Moreover, there are still portions of main lines in this country with relatively low speed limits because they need works doing to upgrade them…which would benefit far more than the tiny number of rich businessmen who will be able to afford to travelling to the continent via the HS2.

Strangely enough, spending money on the existing main lines for orders of magnitude more normal travellers is more beneficial…but no, you gotta defend the luxury train line.

You’ll note that the survey results had to be qualified with the phrase “who expressed their opinion” – that’s because people, generally speaking don’t know much about HS2 and/or aren’t bothered about it for two main reasons;
1. It’s a long way off (in terms of time)
and/or
2. It doesn’t come anywhere near them

Funny but I have spoken to people about this issue and like you have found anecdotally that they don’t know much about and aren’t that interested. Where I agree with you is in concerns about the total cost of this project.

Firstly of course we need to note that the figures quoted included what is called (in Treasury speak); “optimism bias” of 40% – in short a figure deliberately increased to allow for contingencies and/or cost overruns.

Seondly we need to focus on just why it costs so damn much to build a new high speed rail line on this side of La Manche compared with our cousins on the mainland continent. Quite recently an agreement was signed up to finance and build the new line from Tours to Bordeaux, a distance of 302km – considerably greater than phase 1 of HS2 – the total cost of this new line, including interest on the loans required – the equivalent of £7bn or 40% of the HS1 phase 1 – now I know that HS1 phase 1 includes redeveloping Euston and tunnelling in London so it’s bound to be more expensive pro-rata but the figures quoted do not bear close comparison. So I say yes to full transparency of the procurement tendering process for HS2 but I still remain fully supportive of the principle of High Speed Rail in general.

Now when it comes to CrossRail and ThamesLink – just why do we not hear a squeak out of the anti-HS2 brigade about either of those two schemes, which just happen to benefit (exclusively) London/SE England?

Ah, the old “NIMBY” chestnut. How tiresome.

It may be tiresome (to you) but it is extremely relevant because 99% of the heat generated about this vexed topic comes from a tiny group of very active individuals who just happen to reside in close proximity to the proposed route

Sorry but I happen to disagree with you – the arguments in favour of HS2 are very strong

@Ed’s Talking Balls: “This is a rich man’s railway being unsuccessfully marketed as a social leveller.” Ah the HS2 is a rich man’s railway paid for by all of us – how tiresome. Do you have any evidence to support this grossly inaccurate and wildly exaggerated claim – thought not – so stop making this assertion

@Ed’s Talking Balls: I don’t know what makes you think I would be in favour of those projects.

But they’re still going full steam ahead aren’t they? When it comes to CrosRail and ThamesLinn I don’t hear any cries of NO BUSINESS CASE, NO ENVIRONMENTAL CASE, NO MONEY TO PAY FOR IT, emanating from the very vocal crowd in the Chilterns?

@Ed’s Talking Balls: If we are to spend such significant sums on rail, we should improve the existing network; extend the network to cater for areas with limited rail access, or none at all; and/or facilitate further access to the continent by train.

errr…..you seem to have conveniently forgotten the umpteen billion already committed to the ECML upgrade, the Great Western Line upgrade, the Northern Hub project, and the Manchester – Liverpool electrification programme, all of these proceeding during the present spending round.

When it comes to increased access/direct connection to the continent by train only a new line constructed to European interoperability standards can do that – guess what; HS2 is built to European interoperability standards and has a direct tunnelled link to HS1, thereby facilitating the further access you’ve asked for! From day one of HS2 going into operation I’ll be able to board a service from Manchester (where I live) direct to Paris/Brussels (changing in Lille Europe for seamless transfer on to a plethora of other High Speed mainland European services)

Not having consulted opinion polls (not even being aware that one has been commissioned), none. I freely admit that all I am going off is anecdotal evidence. I have yet to meet anyone in favour of HS2.

‘across the country generally this project doesn’t really register one way or the other’

I would respond by asking the same question you posed to me: what evidence do you have to support your claim? I think plenty of people do care about this and more would if the eye-watering figures were more widely known.

‘You claim that ordinary people paying their council tax fail to see the benefit of this scheme – what you mean is YOU fail to see the benefit of this scheme because it’s passing through your back yard!’

Ah, the old “NIMBY” chestnut. How tiresome. I don’t live along the proposed route, for your information, or even near it. I fail to see the benefit because it’s vastly expensive; there are better ways to spend that money; anyone should be able to appreciate the importance of beautiful countryside, wherever they live; and the arguments in favour of HS2 are generally weak, e.g. that it will address the North-South divide. In fact, it’s unlikely to do so, and may well exacerbate it. This is a rich man’s railway being unsuccessfully marketed as a social leveller.

‘Personally I fail to see the beneifit of CrossRail or ThamesLink, two schemes (solely benefitting London) currently going ahead right now’

I happen to agree. I don’t know what makes you think I would be in favour of those projects. If we are to spend such significant sums on rail, we should improve the existing network; extend the network to cater for areas with limited rail access, or none at all; and/or facilitate further access to the continent by train.