Crisis in the skies: China, Japan, the US and the East China Sea dispute

Japan’s refusal to accept that the islands are disputed rules out negotiations leaving China little option.

China ships

Dr. Jenny Clegg is senior lecturer in Asia Pacific Studies at the University of Central Lancashire. She is also the author of ‘China’s Global Strategy: toward a multipolar world

No sooner had China declared an air defence identification zone (ADIZ) in the East China Sea area on November 23 than the airspace became filled with military aircraft – Japanese, South Korean, American B-52s, then Chinese.

With such heightened tensions, the fear is that a minor incident could spark a larger crisis bringing not only China and Japan but also China and the US, two nuclear-armed superpowers, into collision.

From reading the Western media, anyone would have thought that the next world war was about to break out, with China the instigator.

Yet China is doing nothing unusual let alone illegal: the US, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam have all had ADIZs in operation in the region for many years.

Some background is necessary. The area in question includes a number of uninhabited islands – known as the Diaoyu to the Chinese and the Senkaku to the Japanese – which are located 140km from Taiwan, 330km from China and 440 km West of Okinawa. They are under Japanese administration but are also claimed by China and Taiwan, who regard the current arrangements as a legacy of Japanese imperial rule.

China seas map

The islands were ceded to Japan in 1895 following China’s defeat in the first Sino-Japanese War. At the end of World War 2, the US took over their control until 1972 when they were returned to Japan, at which point the Chinese asserted their claim.

Oil reserves were discovered in 1968 but the situation is not so much a ‘scramble over resources’ as, for China, a matter of equal treatment: the 1945 Potsdam Declaration stipulated that the ownership of minor islands claimed by Japan was to be defined by the wartime allies, of course including the Republic of China at that time.

In denial over its past war crimes, Japan has resolutely refused to recognise that the islands are disputed. Last year, it swapped some of them at will from private to government hands amidst a clamour of right-wing nationalist fervour.

This provocation to China received not a word of reprimand from the West.

Indeed, when in 2010 Japan unilaterally doubled the size of its own ADIZ to within 130 km of China’s coast, this was in effect endorsed just a few months later by Hillary Clinton, then US Secretary of State, who declared the islands to be covered by the US-Japan security pact and confirmed US commitment to opposing any unilateral action that would undermine their administration by Japan.

Rather than being driven forward by an expansionist nationalism, China’s latest move may well be a calculated test of US intentions in the region. The recent easing of tensions in the Middle East has left the US free to concentrate on its ‘Asia pivot’ whilst at the same time the US retreat from military intervention in Syria followed by Obama’s the cancellation of his visit to the Asia Pacific during the US government shutdown has raised questions about US commitment in the latter region.

Despite dispatching the two B-52 bombers, the US stopped short of calling for China’s ADIZ to be scrapped, much to the chagrin of the Japanese government. Has China succeeded in dividing the US and Japan? Or is it rather that the US seeks the role of ‘honest broker’ here between an increasingly assertive China and Japan’s unapologetic hawks.

In this way Obama might reclaim US authority as world leader, a role it has just been denied in the Middle East by Russian diplomacy.

With control over the key regional shipping lanes in its hands, the US has the power to cut off world trade with China. If China seeks to change this status quo, it does not mean that its aim is to replace American with Chinese hegemony.

Xi Jinping has repeatedly stated that the Pacific Ocean has enough space for two large countries. China’s serious commitment to power-sharing in North East Asia is clearly indicated by its dogged efforts to get the six party talks on Korean denuclearisation going again.

The failure of the US to take the opportunity this year, the 60th anniversary of the Korean war armistice, to open the way to a peace treaty equally suggests that the US is not ready to make way for a multipolar determination of East Asian security.

The mixed signals from the US could lead to an even more dangerous confusion within the region.

There is still, however, a way back from conflict if the China-India border defence cooperation agreement, signed in October, were to be taken as a model. Both sides here seek to avert an escalation of tensions by committing to avoid the use of force or threat of force, to refrain from provocative actions and not to tail each others patrols.

Japan’s refusal to accept that the islands are disputed rules out negotiations leaving China little option. What would be the reaction if China declares further ADIZ’s over the seas that bear its name? For the region to descend into a downward spiral of conflict would be a disaster for the world economy.

25 Responses to “Crisis in the skies: China, Japan, the US and the East China Sea dispute”

  1. Moodoo

    How much did the Chinese pay you to write this? There is so much assertion written into here which is completely unfounded, invoking so called “unequal treaties” is a real CCP defence. The Senkaku islands were never handed over in a treaty in the 19th Century they were claimed by the Ryukyu Kingdom which today forms part of Japan, there is evidence of Ryukyu settlement there dating even further back. This is absolutely an expansionist effort by China to alter the status quo through the use of force and not limited to here. I notice you quote the distances involved however the exact same strategy is being employed by the Chinese over the Scarborough and Second Thomas Shoals in the Philippines and the Paracel/Spratly Islands which are thousands of kilometres away from China.

    The problem is when a dictatorship has the money to fund academics, institutions, offer lucrative research deals then plenty of people will queue up to become a “friend of China” by writing such drivel as we have seen on this blog.

  2. Bobby

    Jenny Clegg is no academic, she is part of a group formed by George Galloway and Harpal Brar a leading UK North Korea supporter called “hands off China”. It is a shame her and people like her manage to find a platform on some mainstream left websites when in reality the British centre-left has no business supporting this kind of agenda.

  3. AChinese

    What the article didn’t mention is Taiwan was also ceded to Japan after first Sino-Japanese War. Do you think a few small islands will be skipped?

  4. Moodoo

    Yes, the Chinese claim only goes back to the discovery of oil and gas. Even Chairman Mao called those islands Japanese as did Chinese maps published up until the discovery and the Peoples Daily.

  5. Hein.Q

    In China, there’re also a group of people who believe others with different opinions are donated. Can I ask how much you are paid for this? Funny. I saw you mentioned that “Ryukyu Kingdom” which we call it LIUQIU, “forms part of Japan” . I think you just claim the present situation but ignore the reason and history. How did “Ryukyu Kingdom” become part of Japan? So-called “Ryukyu Kingdom” was first founded by Sui Dynasty in 607-608 and first named officailly by the emperor of Ming Dynasty as the name of “Liuqiu” in 1372. From then, even the king of “Ryukyu Kingdom” must be canonized by Ming and Qing Dynasty. There were too many documents to prove that the sovereignty belonged to China. And in 1879, “Ryukyu Kingdom” was totally invaded and occupied by Japan and Chinese government never recognized its sovereignty. After WW2, the USA handed it to Japan without the permission of China.

    As for Fishing Island, it’s always regarded as part of Taiwan Island in many history documents including Chinese government and some foreign docs. And it was ceded by Japan as part of Taiwan Island by Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1985(drawn in nautical char as an annex of treaty), and the treaty was invailed in 1945 with victory of WW2. What is most important is that Japanese instrument of surrender has declared they accpet Potsdam Declaration, which means they must accpet Cario Declaration. So, Japan must return the territory it stolen and Treaty of Peace with Japan which was signed in 1951 without China, the Soviet Union, India, Poland and other alliance against fascism, is completely illegal and ineffective.

  6. Moodoo

    There is nothing illegal about it at all. Just because you don’t like something does not make it illegal.

    China had clearly abandoned its claim over the Senkaku Islands therefore the principle of Terra Nullius applied to the Japanese annexation. Important documents to testify to this could be Chinese maps and newspapers which list them as Japanese until the discovery of oil.

    Even if we step away from the Senkaku islands we see China in border disputes with Vietnam, Philippines, we saw them sending troops over the border into India this year, ramping up military spending at more than 10% a year all of this points to an aggressive expansion strategy and the total repudiation of the so called “peaceful rise” idea.

    70 years ago there was one bad guy in Asia, Japan. Today they are a democratic society who has apologised for its past (whatever China says). Now we see a brutal regime which has no respect for its own people which has no problem committing heinous crimes within its own borders attempting to expand. Can you point to one Chinese ally in the region? Just North Korea?

  7. Jenny Clegg

    I have never been a member of any political party until recently when I joined the Labour Party. I am not part of any group formed by George Galloway and Harpal Brar.

  8. Hein.Q

    Nothing illegal? LOL. Yes, we don’t like it and it’s illegal because the Declaration by United Nations gives us the right. It states that “Each government pledges itself to cooperate with the governments signatory hereto and not to make a separate armistice or peace with the enemies.”, which means the peace treaty with Japan without India, the Union of Soviet and China signing it is totally illegal especailly the part involving China. Actually, the conference didn’t invite China. The logic is really funny that the country which fought against Japan and contained the most of Japanese army was not invited to sign the treaty of their interests.

    Could you tell me which government of China has declared offcially that Fishing Island belongs to Japan in any item of any document/declarition/announcement? If you want to mention the article of people ‘s daily in 1953, I can tell you it hasn’t said a word in Chinese that Fishing Island belongs to Japan. Also, the article is a tranlation of a Japanese article and it’s marked with striking words “资料”, means “materials”. If it is an “editorial” I would support you but unfortunately it is not. Actually I think using an article of newspaper as evidence looks like child’s play.

    Let’s talk about India, Vietnam and Philippines. India, I think you want to mention McMahon Line which was set by a British in 1914. This line I think the situation is the same as East Sea. As you can see, a British set the border of China and India. Tibet is part of China, but Tibet government can’t represent for Chinese government. How can a British cede the territory of Tibet to India? You say we cross over the border, I can’t agree with you because none Chinese government has recognized those borders that a invader forced us to accept. Vietnam and Philippines,if I state the history and docs will you get bored? I’d say it’s really complex. In short, the islands are of South Sea, first founded in Song Dynasty and were belonged to Qing Dynasty. Some were invaded by France during almost 1890s-1930s, and finally all occupied by Japan during WW2. Peace treaty with Japan has mentioned these islands but it’s illegal. According to Potsdam Declaration, they should be returned to China.

    Japan, if it had apologized sinserely to the countries it hurt, South Korea wouldn’t be such furious about Japanese history textbook issues. Neither would China. And Japanese government leaders wouldn’t visit the yasukuni shrine to memory all class-A war criminals in WW2. Yes, in your eyes, or we say in many western eyes and Japanese eyes, Japan is a model democratic country in Asia. And yes, it has established a system of western politics and owns a stunning system of high tech. But in history issues, or morality issues, I don’t think Japan has “apologised”. Not only China says, but also South Korea says, which is another your model of “Democratic Society”. Can the prime minister of Japan kneel to the people they killed during WW2, like that what German chancellor did? What would happen if German builded a memorial like yasukuni shrine to memory Hitler, Goring, Frank or Bormann? Do you think that one nation apologise to another after such terrible inhuman massacre can be a simple apology? Forgiveness is earned not just given.

    To tell you the truth, I don’t care what your government says and my government says. All I only care about is that NO one can decide the coast and border line of my country without our permission. I think there’s an event of China you don’t know. According to the treaty of WW1, China had to transfer the sovereignty of Shandong Province from German to Japan, AS A VICTOR! Can you believe it? The same thing happened in WW2. So, “a weak nation has no diplomacy”. Sometimes it’s not we didn’t want to defend our territory but we were not able to, which others wish to. I know a rich and weak China will satisfy everyone, but it’s not 100 years ago and China is not Qing Dynasty. Why British set McMahon Line between India and China? Why the USA signed treaty with Japan? The answer is creating disputes. Just like a man loses money and the police gets it and gives it to another. Both of them want the money. One says “it’s what I lost.” while the other says “I get it by law.”

    Peace rise, yes, we are willing to, if no one leads war to us. I’d like to say without these disputes, China, Japan and South Korea could have led ASEAN to build an economic union like Europe. And with that we can kick dollars out of Asia which means it will weaken American hegemony, so Japan has a chance to be a normal country if it shows some kind. The way that the USA balances the world just like some ancient Chinese emporers’ politics: seize the power in hands and let officials mutually restrain.

  9. Hein.Q

    Have you read news recently? Your Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe visited Yasukuni Shrine yesterday. “Today they are a democratic society who has apologised for its past (whatever China says).” Such an “apology” is really “comforting”.
    “Now we see a brutal regime which has no respect for its own people which has no problem committing heinous crimes within its own borders attempting to expand.” Yeah, I agree with that, it’s just like what Japan is doing.

  10. Moodoo

    I don’t see people detained without trial, tortured, murdered by unofficial party thugs, placed under house arrest for writing a blog or have their families targeted for collective punishment in Japan. In Japan you can speak more mind freely, protest against the state freely, form political parties in China all media is state controlled, most foreign websites are blocked, no international TV or newspapers are sold even the number of foreign films is limited to 12 a year and must be vetted first.

    In Japan the constitution is respected and protects people’s rights, in China the constitution is a “sensitive topic” and the media are banned from quoting it and teachers banned from discussing it.

    China is a brutal dictatorship, Japan is a liberal democracy trying to argue otherwise makes you sound as credible as China Daily.

  11. Moodoo

    I am a progressive hence why I read this website. You are a disgusting apologist for crimes against humanity. I will be equally critical of Abe and his visit to the Yakusuni Shrine or his proposals to radically change the Japanese constitution to create a “harmonious society” I suspect the reason you have not criticised him for that or for his new state secrecy law is because you support those kind of things in commie China.

    You even admit that China has sent troops across the line of actual control into India administered territory, just as they have made aggressive armed incursions in the South China Sea. I would love to see them make the same move against the Senkaku Islands and see the Japanese Self Defence Forces humiliate the CCP and bring about a new China. Attempting to resolve these disputes with force shows the mindset of China’s rulers. Britain has a maritime dispute with the Republic of Ireland and has the brute force capability to act unilaterally but does not, this is what civilised nations do. You have not seen any attempt by the Japanese to develop the Senkaku islands or rebuild their ancient settlement there. Many many countries have territorial disputes and chose to settle them peacefully often with international arbitration. The Philippines has referred its dispute to the UNCLOS tribunal and China has gone ballistic over it as it would rather attempt to force an unequal treaty. It is funny really that China aspires to be a colonial power itself despite all the nonsense taught in its compulsory political education classes about a “century of humiliation”.

  12. Moodoo

    You should tell “Hands of China” to remove your name from their website then if it really has nothing to do with you.

  13. Hein.Q

    I don’t see any progressive on you with saying others are paid for so easily. In another word, aren’t you an apologist for your nation? “You are a disgusting apologist for crimes against humanity.” I can give back these words to you. If one person denied Japanese crime in WW2, he has no credential to be a prime minister. Because if he can deny the crime of the past and regards it as great pride, he can also deny what he will crime in the future. Alright, honesty and responsibility are my basic principles to comment a governor, for most of Japanese, it’s totally opposite. Abe still has more than half of Japanese supporting him after visiting Yakusuni Shrine which means more than half of Japanese don’t care their prime’s behavior of that. So I think most of your countrymen really don’t care what their fathers or grandfathers did right or wrong 80 years ago. I don’t think you can talk about “humanity” with me even though you criticize Abe in some points because Abe’s behavior has reached a level of state action and represented most of you. You can’t seperate his personal action from Japan. I remember some of former Prime Minister and deputy Prime Minister now Taro Aso’s speech like, “Nanjing Massacre had never occurred”, “Japan should follow the example of the Nazis”, and “the old should die ASAP” and so on. Another inhuman incumbent governor, right? If you want, I can list a third, a fourth of your cabinet member who hold the similar view points. I’m just curious how these people are elected into government. One should be accidental but… Yes, state action.

    New state secrecy, wow, I nearly forget it if you don’t remind me. Isn’t it like the military protection law that Japan made before WW2? It’s another sign that Japan is going back the way of militarism. You just help me to prove it. And as a defeated country who has criminal record and didn’t plead the guilty, such a law should be ware of. Yes, it must be not equal. And see how Americans do with PRISM. How can you criticize China? I admit that China wasn’t that open before 2000 but now is much better. We are making progress on speech freedom just like what we are promoting on human rights. More and more people can talk about national policy on micro-blogs or somewhere as long as your words are not about treason acts to split the country incite rebellion or steal secrets, which all countries will forbid. And how do you know constitution are banned to discuss in China? I get 182,978 results of papers of Chinese constitution including cons and pros on CNKI. And human rights protections were written in constitution in 2004. If you get no facts please do not comment.

    I think I’ve said too much of how disputes occurred between China and other countries and the history of these territory but you don’t see. In your logic, A occupies the territory of B, and B has no right to cross the line if A controls, right? That’s a real pirate logic. In this logic you should abandon the effort on the sovereignty of four northern islands because Russia “administers territory”. If you want international arbitration why don’t you submit the dispute of the four northern islands to international arbitration? Because according to the Potsdam Proclamation which you have accepted, “The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.”So, you have no rights on either four northern islands or Fishing Island on court. Could you tell me that Japan nationalized Fishing Island is not an unilateral act? Even the USA doesn’t recognise your sovereignty. Clear the logic then talk about this issue with me. We just want to get back what we were robbed and lost in WW1&WW2 if you think it’s wrong. The difference between the textbooks is that Chinese indeed endured these humiliation, but Japan would like to deny their invasion as the liberation of Asia.

    You stress the people’s rights and the humanity environment of China is really terrible. You should understand Japan is not that clean. What I see is that China is more and more open while Japan is getting worse and worse. You’d better check out human rights reports from Japanese justice ministry of these years. As I can see, the crime in Japan is on the increase especially in school. Owning child pornography is legal and crimes are still flourishes. That’s really “protects people’s rights”. So according to Japanese report, the situation of Japanese human rights is not that good as you say. I think it’s even like some developing countries. I still remember a piece of news in the summer of this year. Japan’s UN special envoy for human rights issues claimed that Japan is one of the best countries in human rights on a conference, which was ridiculed by other diplomats. Your special envoy was almost out of control then(videos are online). Two steps back, a country who denies his crime has no right to accuse others whatever he does well on surface. Watch how your alliance of WW2 German wins the respect.

    I reply each of your opinion one by one, but you just ignore some of my responses such as the history of Ryukyu Kingdom, the testify of China abandoning Fishing Island, the legitimacy of McMahon Line and Treaty of Peace with Japan, whether Japan apologize for its crime, and so on. Can I regard it as that you give up the position of them? Because I think they are important to judge the attributions of Fishing Island but you just change the topic into attacking Chinese human rights which is really far from the origin topic.

    What’s more, no personal attack, please. Show me your quality of a democratic society. The more insulting words you speak out, the more you help me to prove my position. And I’ve said I don’t care what my government says because I have my own opinion. Media is served for nation interests not only in China but also in other countries. See how Ameircan media are queit in Occupy Wall Street and . I suggest you go back to the facts and extend your resource.

  14. Moodoo

    I am not Japanese I am British.

    I ignored your opinions on the Senkaku Islands because you are simply making things up but the Communist regime in China is based on lies. How can you say China is more open than it was in 2000? There were no internet controls in China in 2000, compare that to today. At least Jiang Zimin was prepared to do TV interviews with foreign journalists, China’s leaders today do not speak to foreign media the only leaders of any country who do that. Being an overseas reporter is pretty dangerous in China why? Because the party do not believe in the truth, just like their brothers in North Korea they want to control all information and not just what is written in China but around the world. If a company writes something they do not like somewhere else in the world they will punish that firm’s business interests in China, global censorship is the aim of the Chinese Communist Party. Bringing down this evil regime is not just in the interests of 1.3Bn Chinese it is in the interests of all the free peoples of the world.

    Talking of Chinese humiliation, the humiliation is not that China was weak in its dealing with foreign powers. It was not that it was forced to hand over Hong Kong and Macau, the humiliation was not that it was forced to create treaty ports the humiliation was that so many Chinese people wanted to live in the treaty ports as they offered a far better life than in the rest of China. That people to this day still queue up to buy baby formula at the Hong Kong border because they trust the British system far better than their own. Even with the new wealth in China today the first thing anyone with money wants to do is ditch the “motherland” and get foreign citizenship.

    Shinzo Abe visiting the Yakusuni Shrine is a disgrace, his attempts to change the constitution doomed as they are also are a disgrace but on the 26th of this month we saw Chinese leaders lining up to visit the shrine of Mao Zedong who killed many times more Chinese than any Japanese leader ever did and was a far bigger criminal against humanity than anyone with a death toll higher than Hitler or Stalin. If Chinese people cannot respect themselves and punish their own leaders for crimes against them how can they call on others to do that same?

  15. Hein.Q

    As long as you are a British, everything will be much more simple.

    You said my opinions are based on lies. That is to say, what I see the map that Fishing Islands belong to China drawn by Japan, documents, reports, papers that Fishing Islands belong to China written by Japanese, are all based on lies, right? They are all made in China, right?

    When it comes to Chinese open, before 2000, can you know what weapons are now in the development and in what progress in China? As for interview, I watched video of the English interview of Jiang Zemin in university, which showed a changing circumstance and strength of a chairman. I also admire his English because in his time learning English is not easy. I’m very surprising that later Chinese leaders fear interview after you saying that. Because I remember former Premier Wen Jiabao’s translator always feels very difficult to translate cited poetry from premier. So I found that, Hu Jintao during his term of office has received many joint interviews with various foreign media, answered reporter’s questions face to face, including exclusive interviews from the Russian media in 2005 and 2007, special interview from Washington Post and the Wall Street journal written in 2011, etc.. Of course, Premier Wen accepted interviews from foreign media more in previous government. He accepted a variety of interviews, including an exclusive interview with Washington Post in Beijing in 2003, an exclusive interview from Newsweek International Edition editor&CNN news presenter Fareed Zakaria in the USA in 2008, and so on. Do you want the video? I have to remind you to return to the facts, at least you should check the facts that support your opinions. I hope this is the last time I say these words because I was taught that British are famous for their rigorousness with so many famous rigorous scientists.

    Since you want to talk about freedom and human rights, then we talk about it.

    I can’t imagine how you are taking that justice tone to say those words. In my opinion, what you said that Chinese signed unequal treaties to open ports because Chinese would like to is very absurd and unreasonable. Maybe you used to see the submissive expression of the Indians who used to be ruled. It is still an ideology of colonialism , which some countries have been holding from the end of World War II to now nearly 70 years, just like the ideology 100 years ago. Of course, this is the legacy of thought when Columbus discovered the new continent, but also the western general idea – powers aggress against the weak is legal. So It is not difficult to understand why the British Empire waged Malvinas War with Argentina in 1982. It’s also not difficult to understand why when mentioned Hong Kong you get excited. Whether to open trading port is the interior of Qing Dynasty. Is it not aggressive when you forced Chinese to open ports through the war? In the first Opium War of 1840 and the second Opium War of 1856, British government forced the Chinese to open treaty ports, pay reparations, cede territory, and they burned Old Summer Palace, plundered the wealth. Is this your way to provide Chinese a better way of life? For the population trade, Chinese labors were brought back to England for the construction of the railway, but the British then didn’t provide the basic guarantee of human rights, which made many Chinese dead. Is this a better way of life for Chinese? In fact, in other words, the British in the nineteenth Century had nothing different to Japan in World War I&II, except that British did not slaughter civilians, that’s it. Oh, I forget, can you tell me who did American Indians massacre in the 18-19 century and Africa black triangular trade? UK waged the first Opium War in order to reduce the trade deficit, relying on exporting drugs to China and destroying Chinese physique. In fact, a series of wars like the Opium War led to economic aggression, Chinese living standard declined. Hong Kong, Taiwan and the mainland history textbooks are basically no difference on this part, so don’t say I’m based on communist lies, or you can have a look on Victor Hugo’s comments of the Opium wars. I also “thank” these aggression, because without these aggressions China wouldn’t have ideological emancipation, but we wish a better way not being aggressed. Of course, if someone denies these aggressions, I think he has no difference with Abe.

    I also don’t see Britain play a positive role from the living standards of India now. After all, it is the colony where British ruled hundreds of years. So, if the British rules China now, I don’t think we will be better than India. The function of Hong Kong is to facilitate trade of UK. If it is for freedom or human rights, Hong Kong government official corruption will not reach that level in 1970s, Hong Kong people will not be only second-class citizens in Hong Kong. So you don’t care that Hong Kong and Hong Kong people will be, you used to care about how much interest from Hong Kong you can get, and now is how much the dignity of the British empire you can keep. So the development of Hong Kong is a special case, if Hong Kong has some achievements, it is the efforts of Hong Kong..

    I really don’t understand why the war, drug trafficking, slavery, genocide, aggression then become peace, freedom, democracy, justice and civilization. For a colonist, national defense of rich countries is the weaker the better. The UK prime minister recently visited China to win trade orders, I did not feel the insistence of western democratic society for human rights. Is it the British unprincipled in front of the interests? If we don’t think like this, I would think the British government has approved Chinese efforts on human rights. I prefer to believe the latter one. Never again hang the human rights in the mouth. Have a look at how Britain obtained Northern Ireland in history, and the “bloody Sunday” of Northern Ireland in 1972. Moreover, if the British government will allow the independence of Scotland after a successful referendum on independence the next year , I would be in favor of western governments protecting civil liberties. Otherwise, these are surface formalism.

    I admit that in the past 20 years, a large number of Chinese immigrants move to foreign countries, especially the rich. But I also see this situation is changing, many immigrants are also in return. A very simple example, the laboratory supervisor I work with was a lead researcher in GM, won many awards and a subeditor of IEEE TVT, then gave up the treatment abroad and returned to China. If we are a developed country with better environment, I think westerners also want to move to China. Pollution, food safety are very serious problems, it is the responsibility of the government, as a Chinese it calls my concern and criticism. But you can’t ask China after Western plundering wealth nearly 100 years, to establish an environmental protection and quality system same as you, which you built with the money of plundering the weak, especially in the case of trade protection. In fact the British and American had the same problems before, Los Angeles in 1942, London in 1952.

    Talking about freedom, I still remember the 2011 Murdoch’phone-hacking scandal is really hot. And before the Iraq war, the British government instructed the media hyping that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, many reports then were false news. After the war, allied forces did not find any weapons of mass destruction, has any media answered for what they said? And during the war, the British government press officer also strongly criticized the BBC anti-war reports. Is this the freedom which western countries are advertised? Only in BBC, the similar thing is not happened the first time. If you like you can do the search of yourself. And in October, 2013, your council also announced a news specification. Isn’t it a kind of going backwards. Also, Britain was also involved in the PRISM scandal of America. Unauthorized government departments monitor citizens’ communication large-scalely, I don’t see what is different with Chinese network control in your mouth. Instead, I think it’s hypocrisy.

    And how British government control the news about Snowden, as a British you should know much more than me. Don’t tell me that the British have no censorship mechanism and sensitive words. I hate China forbidding the Facebook which makes me take time to visit it in a complex way, but it doesn’t mean you can’t visit. I think it’s necessary to control because Chinese are easily provoked to do stupid things, like 1989. If not, there must be color revolutions more than ten times in China. And I don’t see any color revolution brings economy interests to the countries. And the real control of information is the USA and his allies, I haven’t seen one like American PRISM plan of worldwide information monitoring control system so far.

    What is commendable that you did not choose the wrong side on the issue of Libya, though only a little bit close. It’s still a kind of progress.

    Mao Zedong did make many mistakes in his old, however, at least he is also a leader who fought against Japanese invaders. The topic of Cultural Revolution is still sensitive now but not forbidden. At least it’s not a sensitive word on search engines. If you memory Cromwell on the side of that he massacred the catholic in Ireland, just like to memory Mao on the side of Cultural Revolution, is really funny. Besides, I think the number of people dead of his mistake is much smaller then the people died in North America and Africa.

    I know there are many social problems in Chinese society and government, but why can’t you see the progress that China has made but only keep the eyes on the darkness? Just like I will never say riots in London in 2011 were caused by racial discrimination.

    Finally, you still haven’t told me why the peace treaty that America signed with Japan which involving Chinese interests but not invited China to sign is legal, and why it does not violate the United Nations Declaration, Potsdam declaration and Cairo declaration. Isn’t it an unilateral action?

  16. Moodoo

    Because the Senkaku Islands were not Chinese so why should China, who was not even a member of the UN at the time be invited to to sign a treaty on them? They were Terra Nullius when Japan annexed them in 1884 and China made no protest about this until the 1970s when gas and oil were found there. It is a shameless lie by China to maintain they claimed those islands.

    You seem very outraged by what I said on colonialism, I am not a supporter of colonialism but my point was to draw you out. How can you claim to oppose such injustices when you are prepared to support far worse ones against other people? Against the Tibetan people who are burning themselves to death in protest, against the Falun Gong practitioners whose only crime was to create a spiritual movement not controlled by the communist party, against all the people killed or beaten in “mass incidents” every year, the brutality of building schools out of tofu so children die in earthquakes and officials can swallow money, the brutality of allowing poison baby formula and vaccinations to be sold because of official corruption.

    You bring up Hong Kong, if Britain had given HK residents full British Citizenship there would have been an exodus from the colony. Nobody would have wanted to stay, the people there were given no choice as to their future. They did not want to return to China and 1 million emigrated between the declaration and the handover, the lines of people queuing to get a British Overseas Passport shortly before the handover showed the true feelings. Again now we today tens of thousands of protesters on the streets flying the colonial era flag in Hong Kong demanding Universal Suffrage, the type they had in 1995 which was abolished with the handover. Lets not forget there were almost no Chinese people in Hong Kong when it was established, the millions who came to populate it fled there after the revolution.

    I am not defending Colonialism but taking one bad thing and using to justify another never works either. Colonialism was evil, the Communist Party of China is even more evil.

  17. Bobby

    http://twitpic.com/b6xjov An official government letter stating that, all maps prior to 1971 also had them listed as Japanese and the border with Japan drawn accordingly.

    Answer me this, if you are so certain then which province of China do they belong to?

  18. Hein.Q

    I’m really happy that it seems you can read Chinese especially in traditional Chinese characters. Can I speak Chinese then?

    I’ve seen the picture of the link and found nothing strange. Because according to the treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, Fishing Islands had been ceded to Japan as part of Taiwan Islands. So the official of China then used the name of Japanese “Senkaku” not Chinese “Diaoyu”. Japan occupied the whole Taiwan Island then not to mention Fishing Island.

    There are also maps that from Japan in 1951 and 1967 show Fishing Islands belongs to China, here are the urls:

    http://doiop.com/h6aeam
    http://doiop.com/b1m6hk

    It should be governed by Yilan County of Taiwan area exactly. On the issue of Fishing Islands, the mainland and Taiwan area are on the same side, it belongs to China.

  19. Hein.Q

    Happy new year first.

    The peace treaty of Japan did not just include Fishing Islands. It was about ALL Chinese interests from Japan as a victor of WW2. So I can’t help laughing when you say “Because the Senkaku Islands were not Chinese so why should China…be invited to to sign a treaty on them.” Read the items of treaty, please. And not only P.R.C was not invited to join the conference but also R.O.C.. On the other hand, was China not a member of the anti-fascist alliance? China was the first to sign the Charter of UN in alphabetical order of name. In the context of history and the react of the USSR & USA, the treaty should be regarded as a kind of counter-measures of the Korean War. Besides, if Liuqiu Islands and Fishing Islands are really the territory of Japan, why the USA just gave them the jurisdiction but not sovereignty? Actually the USA has said they can’t expand the right when Fishing Island was transferred from Japan to the USA, and can’t weaken it when transferred from the USA to Japan.

    Fishing Islands was first found and named officially in Ming Dynasty. There was a map named of “Atlas of Qing Dynasty” which was drawn in 1862 by Qing government, has shown Fishing Islands were part of China then. And according to the maps drawn by the Royal Navy in 1877, Fishing Island is marked as part of China. So your words of “Terra Nullius” are totally wrong.

    So, the point is not that whether China had claimed the sovereignty or not but whether Japan had Credentials to claim the sovereignty or not. And when the USA took sovereignty from Japan, we did make protest. And even what Chinese newspaper said cannot change the fact that Fishing Island is part of Taiwan Islands but not Ryukyu Islands. It cannot change the fact that Japanese occupied the islands by force but not found “Terra Nullius”. Even just like you said we wanted the resource, it cannot change any fact of all declarations in WW2 that the islands belonged, belong and will belong to China.

    If I burn myself in front of British Museum to protest that British government refuse to return the antiquities they robbed, is it the fault of British government? You just said the Tibet people in protest burned themselves but you don’t point out they also burned others and others’ property, like what the mobs did in London in 2011. These mobs are organized by TYC and many police officers and civilians are dead or injured these years because of them. I think they have nothing different with IRA just they haven’t been armed by weapons yet which soon they will be.

    The founder of Falun Gong, Li Hongzhi was born in the city I’m living in, where he created Falun Gong. I think I can comment it in a better position. I’ve never seen a religion abets or forces others to burn themselves to realize the interests of the religion,unless it’s a cult such as Branch Davidian, Aum Supreme Truth, the Order of the Solar Temple. So mundane affairs and spiritual affairs should be separated, and religions should not be involved in politics. Falun Gong is guilty because it lies to believers it can heal disease and forbid them going to hospital, not because it wanted spiritual movement. I still remember my uncle had a book of how to practice Falun Gong to cure, totally unscientific. And so-called spiritual movement, I’ve seen that 10 years ago and I think you wouldn’t like to join it. At that time, most believers were in the generation like my uncle who are lack of education and easy to be cheated. The believers didn’t work but dragged others to join the

    rally, painted slogans all over the community, printed slogans on paper money, knocked your door and forced you to accept their publicity materials. It’s a kind of brainwashing not belief. Also Li was donated by NED,the org which is supported by US government and CIA and gives the money or free as long as you fight against the government. He is just a joke if you know QiGong and Chinese history more. And I’m really happy he went to America because he has no chance to persecute Chinese anymore.

    Actually, as far as I can see ,some of what you said are based on the lies of western media. Just like what they did before Iraq War to win the moral high ground. One man may steal a horse while another may not look over a hedge. I’ve already seen the double standard of you from PRISM and Chinese network control.

    I’m happy to see many officials were arrested in the past 2013 because of corruption, and with the determination of Chairman Xi there will be more in 2014. I thought it would be big news in international news. The culture of Chinese officialdom is not that simple. I can say if you line up the officials and shoot them one by one, there will be no people wronged. I also noticed that the ending of the allowance scandal of British parliament is only the resignation of the speaker. So, it’s same in all countries, never be too hurry or there will be unrest.

    And I don’t believe in western food safety after the tainted milk of Fonterra, Nescafe, HiPP. And such as mad cow disease, foot-and-mouth disease, dioxin, Lester Bacillus, Salmonella in meat and food. I think I have to grow and feed myself, haha. Just close your eyes and eat. I’m not defending my government, I think the person liable should be sentenced and go to jail.

    As for Hong Kong, please see Official White House Response to Peacefully grant the State of Texas to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own NEW government. You’d know it was signed by more than 100000 people. And as I was told by my classmates in HK, the people who want independence is not that many. I wouldn’t say without mainland HK is nothing but HK is benefit from it. And I see how western would like to destroy HK in 1998.

    Governments are all dirty including CCP and British government. What left is just interests.

  20. Bobby

    Yes I can speak Chinese but sorry maybe I misunderstood your English. Did you just say it is part of Taiwan? You are making yourself look rather silly.

  21. Hein.Q

    That’s good. I said “Taiwan area” not “Taiwan”. Actually, when you asked the question about province, I know exactly what you want to say next and how you trap. And I said, it belongs to China, not only PRC, it’s China. The issue between the mainland and Taiwan area is our internal affairs. Dare any country of the G20 recognise Taiwan’s independence or the legality of ROC, especially British government? Even the leader of Taiwan area Ma Ying-Jeou said, the relationship between mainland and Taiwan area is not the relationship between nations, it’s special. And he said, we are not two Chinas. So on the issue of Fishing Island, we both represent for China not just PRC or ROC.
    If you want to ask as long as Fishing Island should be governed by Taiwan area, how the mainland claims the sovereignty. I’d say,Taiwan is still an integral part of China, not to mention Fishing Islands.

    所以,不要在台湾地区这里做文章了,没有意义, 而且我认为这才是真的silly。如果你关注马英九目前正在推行的法案就会明白,台湾地区正在缓慢但是坚定地向着统一前进。
    不过我还是觉得有西方人学中文还是很神奇的。

  22. Hein.Q

    If you check all my replies you will find that when mention to “Taiwan”, I always use “Taiwan Islands” or “Taiwan area” but not “Taiwan” alone in case of someone attacking me on this point. And don’t think Taiwan area is weak then someone can bully him. We are his big brother.

  23. Moodoo

    Taiwan is the Republic of China, the Republic China is Taiwan and it is a soveriegn nation. The guomindang are finished there and the pro independence DPP likely to win the election. Just as Britain gives the decision to the Scottish people tlthen China should have no problem withpeople exercising the right to self-determination as mentioned in the st united nations resolution that you’re quoting at me earlier. Qing invaded and conquered Taiwan 300 yeara ago. a bank holiday this by sending han chinese to live there but you have no issue with this. It has been separate from China for 100 years and most people there now do not even identify as Chinese only the threat of war has halted the independence movement. Thankfully thw Taiwan Relations Act will protect this gem of democracy in Asia from the barbaric beast next door.

  24. Hein.Q

    Your government has not recognized the sovereignty of Taiwan area. If your government believes Taiwan is an independent state but dare not admit it, your government is hypocritical. As long as your democracy decides that these government officials are on behalf of your thoughts, that is to say the British are hypocritical. If not, save your words. Let your government recognize the independence of Taiwan area please, USE YOUR DEMOCRACY please! I can’t wait!

    And stop showing me your shallow knowledge in Chinese history. If Qing invaded and conquered in Taiwan, Qing invaded and conquered the whole mainland. They took it from Ming Zheng which you won’t understand.

    Why did the British use violence to stop North Ireland being independent? Because Britain is hypocritical. They are happy to see others seperated but not themselves. Scotsman did do vote, but unless your government allow them to withdraw from UK, then you can say Britain gives the decision. What I can see is that Britain is preparing for another war like what they did to IRA.

    Have a look at what your ancestors did to African and Indians, the massacre and the invasion of Asia. Now you want to say human rights, too late. Take off the mask and go back on history Britain is the REAL barbaric beast. Not just in history but also now, look at what British did to Iraq. So just wipe that hypocrisy off the face.

    Your country is part of the largest network control of the world PRISM.
    Your country did the worst genocide of the world.
    Your country is the only country which is still trying to keep their impact in colonies in modern civilization society.
    etc.

    If I were you, I would stop and evaluate myself but not blame others. The one who accuse others are barbarous chooses to ingore his country waging wars all along.

  25. Luong the Viet

    We Viets totally support our Japanese brothers and sisters in the upcoming war against these greedy dirty chinese. Please continue to supply Vietnam with Japan’s best and most advanced weapons so we can kill and defeat them. After china is defeated, we must break up china into 1,000 smaller countries. All of southern china, including Hainan Island, will be taken over by Vietnam. Amen.

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